The Nuremberg Interviews (42 page)

“I tried to do something during the war several times, and again with Field Marshal Erwin von Witzleben, the last attempt being July 20, 1944.
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I was imprisoned two days later. Hitler arrested six thousand people in connection with that attempt. You can see that not all of these six thousand knew about the
Attentat
. Now, where is the charge of aggressive war against me?”

I asked him why, if he thought so badly of Hitler and Nazism, he did not leave the country just as many self-respecting Germans who disagreed with Hitler for what he had done. I mentioned for example, the writer Thomas Mann. Schacht replied, “Thomas Mann is a very unhappy man. I often thought of it. What good do emigrants do? Thomas Mann served no good. Before the war, but after Hitler came to power, my Jewish friends in Switzerland told me that they would come back to Germany if they could, even if forced to do so creeping on all fours. But that was before the war. Now I would advise none of these Jews to return, because Germany is an atrocious place to be. It is a great pity for Germany. German culture and the German people have lost tremendously by the fact that the great German Jewish families are no longer in Germany. They were a great contribution to our knowledge and culture. By the way, the prosecution does not accuse me of anti-Jewish behavior, so there is no need for me to defend myself in that regard.”

I said I had heard from other defendants that some definitely anti-Semitic laws had been promulgated by the Ministry of Economics under Schacht, and that many people considered these anti-Jewish rulings, which dispossessed the Jews economically, to be the beginning of the
persecution that eventually led to extermination, mass murder, and the rest. Schacht was indignant. “Who told you that?” I said that I had no reason to withhold the name of the man who made that comment since he had not asked me to keep it secret, and that actually I had heard it from two persons now in this prison. One of them was the defendant Funk, Schacht’s successor, and the other was Hemmen, who had been an ambassador of the Foreign Office.
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Schacht said, “Funk is trying to put the blame on me. Hemmen I have heard of, but he is unreliable.” I asked Schacht whether he recalled any anti-Semitic economic laws which he had promulgated. “I did not call any of the laws I promulgated anti-Semitic. I did promulgate a law preventing Jews from holding civil service jobs, and limiting the number of Jews in certain business fields. I had to promote that law because I was ordered to do so. But this was not unreasonable, and I do not call that persecution.”
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I remarked somewhat pointedly that at any rate one could hardly describe him as an ardent proponent of equal rights for all peoples. Schacht did not reply, but he went on to say, “The prosecution says that I am innocent.” I asked him whether he did ever come out against anti-Semitism in any public utterance or any publication; he said with conviction, “Often.” Were there any documents or other proof of that fact? He replied, “I don’t know of documents. Proof of such things is difficult to obtain. But I ask you, is there any argument that shows I favor anti-Semitism?” I stated that I did not want to indulge in questioning his statements but that it seemed to me that he was not very much bothered by anti-Semitic policy, in view of the fact that he served in the Hitler government for so many years. “I stayed in the Hitler government, as I told you before, because I felt that at least one honest man in that government might serve as a check on Hitler.”

I smiled at this, and Schacht asked me in a puzzled tone what I was smiling about. I replied that I was sure it was just a coincidence, but I had just recalled that the notorious SS general Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski had told me in almost the very same words that that was the reason he was in the SS. Schacht bridled. “Bach-Zelewski is a liar and a criminal — a terrible man. I repeat, he is a liar, a criminal, and a killer. I have proof of what I am saying about myself, but I know that Bach-Zelewski is a frightful liar.”

Schacht was not at all pleased by my last remark. He was coldly polite when I left his cell shortly thereafter. He seems unable to brook any criticism
or challenging of his stories or statements. My comments from time to time, my obvious failure to be convinced of his complete innocence and lack of guile were irritating to him, and his voice reached heights of shrillness at times. As ever, his is still the pose of outraged innocence, and the honest banker indignant.

This afternoon we discussed some personal history, particularly regarding Schacht’s family. He said, “For centuries my ancestors came from Schleswig-Holstein. Originally they were peasants and farmers, but my paternal grandfather was a physician. My grandfather was a Danish official district physician, who had eight sons and one daughter. My father was the fourth or fifth child. Three of my father’s elder brothers emigrated to the U.S. and their families are still living there. Two remained here in Germany. My own father emigrated to America, became an American citizen, but after six years in the U.S. returned to Germany. Two of my older brothers were born in America. One of them is still alive, a physician in general practice in Baden-Baden. I myself was born in Schleswig-Holstein.

“My maternal grandfather was also a Danish official, by the name of Baron Eggers. He was president of police in Schleswig. His father was a famous man — a Danish minister for Schleswig-Holstein, also a baron.

“All of my mother’s brothers and sisters, with the exception of one, remained in Denmark after 1864. Their families are still living there. My mother had six brothers and three sisters. One of them emigrated to the U.S. and is still there. On one of my trips to America, I met a cousin, but I don’t know if he is still alive.

“My maternal great-grandfather was a great Danish financier and, like myself, was a Freemason. Ironically enough, he stabilized Danish currency. His masterpiece was the liberation of Slav farmers, in Schleswig-Holstein, with the help of a count who was another Danish minister.

“Another granduncle of mine was the discoverer and inventor of many important things in the field of electricity. One of my mother’s sisters married his son. He was also a Dane. So, you can see that Denmark is my second fatherland. I have another cousin who was married to a physician in Denmark, and my other Danish relations include a pharmacist, judge, lawyer, and colonel in the Danish army.”

Regarding his father, Schacht said, “My father died as a young man at the age of eighty-three in 1930. I say he was a young man because my grandfather, who always smoked a long pipe, died at the age of eighty-five. I began smoking at the age of sixteen — also a long pipe.” I remarked that Goering had a long hunter’s pipe which he smoked in the prison here. Schacht deprecated the length of Goering’s pipe and said, “Ach! That is only a half pipe. The pipe I smoked at the age of sixteen was a really long pipe which came down to my knees. That man Goering … is a frightful man. It is surprising that he came from a good family, I believe, whereas Hitler didn’t. But on the other hand, I don’t know. I have heard that Goering spent lots of money having his family tree investigated and written up, but that it was a hard job because although his father comes from good stock, his mother was a waitress. This waitress was Goering’s father’s second wife. But Goering’s father himself seems to have been an orderly man.

“Physically, I resemble my father rather completely, in fact, exactly. He was not quite as tall as I am. Mentally, I resemble both my father and my mother. The Schachts are witty and intelligent and so are the Eggerses. My feelings and temper are more like my mother’s. My mother was cheerful, easily touched — which is my own greatest fault. She was also sentimental to some extent, and that too is something I inherited from her.

“My father, on the other hand, was industrious and orderly — and so am I. Wherever he would be placed he would find his way about; so would I. My father was very honest from his head to toe, and so am I. My father had a great feeling for right and justice and was a Freemason — and so am I.”

I asked him whether he had inherited or acquired any features of either his father or mother that might be considered weaknesses. He reflected for a moment and said, “Just the tendency to softheartedness and sentimentality which were my mother’s. But in all, I think I represent the best traits of both my father and my mother. As a psychiatrist, have you found it to be true that the middle child is usually the best?” I replied that I had not done sufficient research on that point to be able to answer him. At this point the guard handed Schacht some writing paper and envelopes, for which Schacht was made to sign a receipt. When the operation was concluded, Schacht said, “This man, your commanding officer, the colonel, must come from Lithuania — some of the best
sergeants of the German army came from there. These men automatically make excellent soldiers, without any imagination; they were bound by the rules, they thought in uniform, and were very orderly and correct. Can you imagine making us sign a receipt that we received a piece of paper to write a letter on?” I did not reply to these cutting remarks but merely observed that Schacht seemed to take out his hostility on the commandant of the prison. I said that I thought there was probably some reason for having the defendants sign a receipt that they had received certain articles such as writing material, because of the large number of persons in the prison at the present time and to make sure that every prisoner received his allotted materials. Schacht grunted. “My watch and money were robbed here in this jail. I reported it to your colonel and he is still investigating it. It was robbed the first night I came here, I think — probably by one of your lieutenants who has since gone back to America. They never gave me a receipt for that watch or for the money. I shall demand to be repaid for this.”

We returned to the subject of his father. “My father was a trained teacher but later became a businessman and was employed by the Equitable Life Insurance Company for thirty years. When he returned to Germany he gave up teaching, which he detested — and I can understand that — and obtained a job with the Equitable. The last ten years of his life were on a pension from that company. He was a man of moderate means and had built a little home which he called the Villa Equitable in Berlin. Before that, we had lived in Hamburg for a while.”

Regarding his mother, Schacht said, “She died in 1938 at the age of eighty-five. She died praying, ‘Our Father,’ in Danish. It was interesting that her last words were in the language of her childhood. Whereas my father was very active, pushing, ingenious, always trying to find something new, my mother was more sentimental, gay, and full of feeling. She was a very faithful wife and devoted mother who concerned herself mainly with providing us with a good home and food. It was Father who always had the ideas and was constantly planning.”

Schacht went on to talk of the other members of his family. He is one of six brothers. There were no sisters. Two of his brothers died in infancy. Two more died during this war. Schacht is the third child. His only living brother is the physician in Baden-Baden, now seventy-four years old but still vigorous and with a great international clientele. Years ago, he practiced in Egypt during the winters and in Baden-Baden during the summer.
He is absolutely an international man, speaks seven or eight languages including Arabic, Swedish, Dutch, French, and English.

“I said before that I thought the second or third child was usually superior to the others. I believe that is true, but in my own family it does not hold because my first wife’s oldest child, my oldest daughter, is the most intelligent of my children. She is married to a Bavarian official in the Ministry of Justice. I saw my son-in-law in Nuremberg early in the trial. Now I am unable to see anyone — although it has been proved in my defense that I am absolutely not guilty. My son-in-law was born in Holland. My second wife was born in Hungary but of German parents. My son speaks French and English well. He lived in Chicago for over a year because I wanted him to get American banking experience.”

The rest of the interview was spent discussing the cruelness of war, with particular emphasis on the fact that Schacht disapproves of war because two of his brothers died in the war. “I was never in the army — I never had a uniform — I was never a soldier. I detest uniforms because they make one unfree. There is an old quotation that goes something like this: ‘Your mind will be trained well, but confined to Spanish boots.’ That quotation is very apt. It signifies how narrow the military mind becomes.”

This Sunday, Schacht was in a fairly depressed mood at the beginning of the interview, but he became more grandiose and boastful as we talked. He remarked that he always felt better after speaking with me and that he was glad that I had dropped in. He said that the meals were monotonous but the food was sufficient. He wished that he could have some jam or other sweet such as marmalade in the mornings because he needed the energy. He was pessimistic about the date for the end of the trial, which he placed at mid-September at the earliest. Previously he had been even more pessimistic, at one time saying that he believed the trials would go on until December. He felt depressed today particularly because he had just received a letter from his wife, who lives in Hollenstedt. She complained of having no money because his bank accounts are frozen, and of the very poor food situation. He said, “My wife is forty years old, a resourceful, charming woman, and it is a pity. You might be interested in knowing that the village in which she lives is a famous one, having been built in 800 by Charles the Great as a fortress against the Vikings. My poor wife lives in two small garret rooms.” Whenever
Schacht referred to his wife, he always added that she was forty years old.

I asked him how he thought the trials were progressing and he said, “Not badly. I think Jodl was quite dignified and put up a good defense. The English assistant prosecutor, Roberts, didn’t get very far with him in the cross-examination.”