The Nuremberg Interviews (26 page)

Was there anything about Hitler of which he disapproved? I asked. “Certainly in the course of the years I disapproved of much. But from 1941 onward, I was hardly with Hitler except on official occasions. There was the inner iron ring of Bormann, Himmler, and Ribbentrop. I think that the atrocities, if they existed — and mind you, I don’t believe they were technically possible, or if they were, I don’t believe Hitler ordered them — it must have been Goebbels or Himmler. Only one thing amuses me about Hitler’s finale — his sentimental marriage to Eva Braun. That was a little too much drama and sentiment. He could have omitted that.”

I said that a moment ago he had referred to Hitler as perhaps a trifle unbalanced. For example, in what way? “I don’t think he was ever crazy. Not that. I meant the noise and bombing sounds in Berlin when he wrote the last testament. If he did lose his balance it was also because of the military defeats that could have been averted if he had not been betrayed by some of his generals and others. The
Attentat
of July 20, 1944, was an indication of the betrayal by some of the generals.”

I said that we had wandered far afield but that the conversation had been interesting. Goering smiled and said, “It’s been better than two APCs.
¹¹
I forgot about my sciatica. Come back again tomorrow, or do you think I can go to court?” I replied that it would depend on how he felt. “Well, I think I’ll stay down tomorrow. The court isn’t so interesting these days.” I remarked that Schirach was on the stand. “I’d rather be there for his cross-examination,” he said, laughing. “Anyway, I know what he’s going to say.”

This evening Goering was in his cell smoking his long Bavarian hunting pipe and looking rather depressed when I entered with Mr. Triest. He smiled forcibly in an attempt to appear cheerful and invited us to sit down. I asked him how his sciatica was and he replied that it was much improved. He has been walking well and there were actually no signs of sciatic neuritis any longer.

I remarked that he appeared rather “down” and I wondered whether he was depressed about something. He looked at the far wall reflectively and said, “Well, this sciatica has got me down a little bit, but I must admit that in general I don’t feel as cheerful as I might. I don’t understand it myself. On the other hand, I am a prisoner on trial for my life, very much debased in position compared to the position I enjoyed for many years, and I suppose it is natural for me to feel occasionally low. You know, I spend a good deal of my time in fantasy. For example, when things get dull or unpleasant in the courtroom, I can close my eyes behind my dark glasses and I practically live in the past. I think of the many pleasant times that I had. For example, I think of the frequent large parties I had in Karin Hall or of my popularity among the German people, which gives me great pleasure and satisfaction. I am sure that I will go down in history as a man who did much for the German people. This trial is a political trial, not a criminal one. If there were criminal things perpetrated by the party, or the SS, or even the army, as is charged, I certainly had nothing to do with them. It is true that my position as second in command politically next to Hitler makes such a statement seem ridiculous. Maybe I closed my eyes to the real meaning of what was going on in Germany, but it was always for the benefit of the common people that I strived. I mentioned the big parties I had at Karin Hall, but they were few and far between. Mostly I had the highest ethics and the highest aims.”

Would he tell me more about his art collection? Goering said, “I’m glad you asked me that question, because it is something I had little opportunity to answer comprehensively in court. They tried to paint a picture of me as a looter of art treasures. In the first place, during a war everybody loots a little bit. However, none of my so-called looting was illegal. I may have paid a small price — smaller than the articles were worth — for things, but I always paid for them or they were delivered to me by official channels through the Hermann Goering Division, which,
together with the Rosenberg Commission, supplied me with my art collection. Perhaps one of my weaknesses has been that I love to be surrounded by luxury and that I am so artistic in temperament that masterpieces make me feel alive and glowing inside. But always my intention was to contribute these art treasures, paintings, pieces of sculpture, altarpieces, jewels, et cetera, to a state museum after I had died or before, for the greater glory of German culture. Looking at it from that standpoint I can’t see that it was ethically wrong. It was not as if I accumulated art treasures in order to sell them or to become a rich man. I love art for art’s sake and as I said, my personality demanded that I be surrounded with the best specimens of the world’s art.”
¹²

I said that this seemed fairly clear and that my own interpretation of his art accumulations was that he felt happiest when in luxurious surroundings, that this was a facet of his personality, and that he never took it very seriously. I added, however, that in the eyes of the world he had taken art treasures which for centuries belonged to other countries and brought them to his home in great quantities, which in itself was not a laudable activity. Goering nodded and said, “You are the first one who seems to understand this. I admit all that you have said. Of all the charges which have been revealed against me, the so-called looting of art treasures by me has caused me the most anguish. But it was not done in the spirit of looting. I like nice things about me. I didn’t want them for myself in the final analysis anyway. They would have gone to the museums of Germany for posterity. If I had not taken them they would be in the hands of those damn Russians for the most part.” Goering smiled as if he had scored a point.

I asked him what his opinion about Russians was and why he constantly referred to them as “damn Russians” and why he seemed so antipathetic toward the Russian people. “The Russians are primitive folk. Besides, Bolshevism is something that stifles individualism and which is against my inner nature. Bolshevism is worse than National Socialism — in fact, it can’t be compared to it. Bolshevism is against private property, and I am all in favor of private property. Bolshevism is barbaric and crude, and I am fully convinced that the atrocities committed by the Nazis, which incidentally I knew nothing about, were not nearly as great or as cruel as those committed by the Communists. I hate the Communists bitterly because I hate the system. The delusion that all men are equal is ridiculous. I feel that I am superior to most Russians,
not only because I am a German but because my cultural and family background are superior. How ironic it is that crude Russian peasants who wear the uniforms of generals now sit in judgment on me. No matter how educated a Russian might be, he is still a barbaric Asiatic. Secondly, the Russian generals and the Russian government planned a war against Germany because we represented a threat to them ideologically.

“In the German state, I was the chief opponent of Communism. I admit freely and proudly that it was I who created the first concentration camps in order to put Communists in them. Did I ever tell you that funny story about how I sent to Spain a ship containing mainly bricks and stones, under which I put a single layer of ammunition which had been ordered by the Red government in Spain? The purpose of that ship was to supply the waning Red government with munitions. That was a good practical joke and I am proud of it because I wanted with all my heart to see Russian Communism in Spain defeated finally.”

I said that there were many things about his worldview that I did not really understand. In the first place, what about his concept of the importance of the oath of loyalty and the matter of the all-importance of orders? “That is another thing I am glad you asked me about. We Germans consider an oath of fealty more important than anything. This tribunal fails to realize that accepting orders is a legitimate excuse for doing almost anything. The tribunal is wrong. Mind you, I said almost anything. I don’t consider the extermination of women and children as proper even if an oath were taken. I myself can hardly believe that women and children were exterminated. It must have been that criminal Goebbels, or Himmler, who influenced Hitler to do such a dastardly thing. I am very cynical about these trials. The trials are being fought in the courtroom by the world press. Everyone knows that the Frenchmen and the Russians who are judges here have made up their minds that we are all guilty and they had their instructions from Paris and Moscow long before the trial even started to condemn us. It’s all but planned and the trial is a farce. Maybe the American and English judges are trying to conduct a legitimate trial. But even in their case I have my doubts.”

I asked him to give me further reflections or impressions about the trials as far as his opinion was concerned. Goering seemed wary and not too inclined to speak at length. He did say, however, “Frankly, it is my intention to make this trial a mockery. I feel that a foreign country has no right to try the government of a sovereign state. I have desisted from
making any critical remarks about my codefendants. Yet they are a mixed-up, unrepresentative group. Some of them are so unimportant, I never even heard of them. I’ll admit they are right in including me among the big Nazis who ran Germany. But why include Fritzsche? He was one of many section chiefs in the Propaganda Ministry. And then they try a man like Funk, who is guilty of nothing. He followed orders, and they were my orders. And then they try a fellow like Keitel, who, although he was called a field marshal, was a small person who did whatever Hitler instructed. Of all the defendants, the only ones who are big enough to merit being tried are me, Schacht, Ribbentrop perhaps, although he was a weak echo of Hitler, Frick, who proposed the Nuremberg Laws, and maybe a few others, like Rosenberg and Seyss-Inquart. The rest of them were followers and showed little initiative.”
¹³

“Then there is the farce of the case against the general staff. These military men were not a part of any conspiracy to wage war but simply accepted orders and obeyed them as any German soldier or officer would do. If there was a conspiracy, it lay among those who are dead or missing — I mean Himmler, Goebbels, Bormann, and naturally, Hitler. I always felt that Bormann was a primitive criminal type and I never trusted Himmler. I would have dismissed them.” Goering smiled knowingly and added, “You know, you can get rid of a man in many subtle ways. For example, you can dismiss a man suddenly, but that is less effective if that individual has some power and backing than by slowly diminishing his power by giving him more and more meaningless titles. In the case of Himmler, I would have promoted him on paper and made him chief of this and chief of that, but in the end his power would be gone. I would have taken away from him the police power first, and later I would have assumed control of the SS myself. In this way there would have been no such thing as mass murders. For all that Hitler was a genius and a strong character, he nevertheless was suggestible, and Himmler and Goebbels or both must have influenced him to go ahead with such an idiotic scheme as gas chambers and crematoriums to eliminate millions of people.

“Even if one had no compunction about exterminating a race, common sense dictates that in our civilization this is barbaric and would be subject to so much criticism from abroad and within, that it would be condemned as the greatest criminal act in history. Understand that I am not a moralist, although I have my chivalric code. If I really felt that the
killing of the Jews meant anything, such as that it meant the winning of the war, I would not be too much bothered by it. But it was so meaningless and did nobody any good whatever except to give Germany a bad name. I have a conscience and I feel that killing women and children simply because they happen to be the victims of Goebbels’s hysterical propaganda is not the way of a gentleman. I don’t believe that I will go to either heaven or hell when I die. I don’t believe in the Bible or in a lot of things which religious people think. But I revere women and I think it unsportsmanlike to kill children. That is the main thing that bothers me about the extermination of the Jews. The second thing which I disapprove of is the unfavorable reaction politically which such a meaningless program of extermination of necessity brings with it. For myself I feel quite free of responsibility for the mass murders. Certainly as second man in the state under Hitler, I heard rumors about mass killings of Jews, but I could do nothing about it and I knew that it was useless to investigate these rumors and to find out about them accurately, which would not have been too hard, but I was busy with other things, and if I had found out what was going on regarding the mass murders, it would simply have made me feel bad and I could do very little to prevent it anyway.”

I asked Goering about his attitude toward joining Hitler originally and why he had done so. “Well, I was against the Versailles Treaty and I was against the democratic state, which failed to solve the problem of unemployment and which instead of making Germany a powerful nation was turning it into a small, minor state. I am a German nationalist and have high ideals for Germany. I am convinced that German culture, even now with Germany in ruins, is the highest in the world because we had the greatest art, music, industrial capacity, and so forth. I have to laugh when the English claim that they are such a wonderful nation. Everyone knows that Englishmen are really Germans, that the English kings were German, and that in Russia the emperors were either of German origin or received their education in Germany. I met Hitler in 1922 at a meeting and was not too impressed with him at first. Like myself, he said very little at this first meeting. A few days afterward I heard Hitler give an address in a Munich beer hall where he spoke about a greater Germany, the abolition of the Versailles Treaty, arms for Germany, and a future glory of the German people. So I joined forces with him and became a member of the National Socialist Party. That was in the days when Hitler
was a very minor politician, although his ideas were always big. He was honored to have me as a fellow worker because I had some fame as the successor of Richthofen. Hitler asked me to take charge of the SA, which at that time was in the process of being formed to become a military organization. I had great fun. At that time Hitler was open to suggestion, and if I say so myself, I played a vital role in his eventual rise to power. I am convinced that whether or not Hitler happened along, I would have been a leading statesman and military power in Germany and I would have succeeded in winning a war. In fact, if I had not been displaced in Hitler’s confidence by such inferior people like Bormann and Himmler, I could have influenced Hitler further and perhaps averted a war.