The Collected Works of Chögyam Trungpa: Volume 4 (50 page)

S:
It’s a kind of fervor that that kind of energy produces?

TR:
It’s a product of long experience of dismantling yourself, starting from the hinayana level.

Student:
Is there any relationship between the wrathful deities and vajra hell?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
Yes. That’s the jail of the wrathful deities, I suppose you could say. And no one can save you from that.

S:
So the wrathful deities put you in vajra hell and keep you there?

TR:
No, not necessarily. The wrathful deities are by no means jail wardens. They are more like a powerful friend who does not go along with you if you do not go along with him.

Student:
Rinpoche, to what extent should these yanas and levels of awareness you’re talking about be assimilated to Western forms, and to what extent do you think they need to be kept in their traditional Tibetan form?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
I think people should have some understanding of the psychology of it, the whole idea of it, which is not a foreign idea, particularly. It’s just general, universal logic, cosmic logic, that everybody could agree on. That is why the teaching is called the truth. Everybody can agree that fire is hot—it’s that kind of thing. Once one has understood the basic principles of the tantric teaching and has had some experience of the practice of it, there should be no trouble in transplanting it. The images cease being seen as cultural expressions. They just become images on their own. So I think if people have a basic understanding of the psychology and philosophy, and especially if they have good background training in basic Buddhism—the hinayana and mahayana—tantra won’t even need to be adopted. There’s no need to try to cut it down or reduce it to make it presentable. If a person is able to feel it, see it, experience it, then it becomes almost too obvious. That’s what seems to have happened in the past, in Tibet and also in Japan, when tantra was introduced. It was not adapted to anything. It was just transplanted—straight from the horse’s mouth.

Student:
Is there a merging of the wrathful and peaceful deities? Or do you experience them one after the other?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
One after the other, yes. With either one of those, there’s no choice. If there was a union, that would mean there would be some choice or compromise. But there’s no compromise.

Student:
In the mahamudra yanas, visualization was important. When you get to maha ati, is visualization still necessary, or is there a more direct method?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
There is visualization up to a certain point. But it gets quite complicated here, because within maha ati itself, there are also three levels.

S:
Well, let’s say in the final stage of maha ati.

TR:
No, there is no visualization.

S:
But why is it necessary to have visualization to get to the great dzokpa chenpo?

TR:
The basic purpose of visualization is to enable you to identify yourself with the principles of enlightenment and also to appreciate the colorfulness of the energy of the world around you at the same time. That way you can see your world as one of the deities. And, you know, it takes a lot of technique to enable you to do that, so that you begin to use head and heart together. Particularly the appreciation of energies in visual and auditory terms is very, very difficult. We probably feel that in listening to classical music or jazz, or some other kind of music, we are identifying with the sound, or going along with it or dancing with it; or when we watch a good movie, we might forget that we are sitting in a chair watching a movie. But in actual fact, we are fascinated rather than being one with the sound or the movie. So tuning in to the energy, cosmic energy, is very difficult. It’s not a matter of just swinging with it. It needs a lot of techniques and manipulations, so to speak.

Student:
Rinpoche, is there an equivalent in Western psychology for anything approaching mahamudra? Like in Jung, perhaps?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
There is a touch of it in Jung, I suppose, but the problem is, it becomes so philosophical, rather than a matter of practice. It seems that he himself did not know how to handle the idea of practice. Anything on the mahamudra level could be a very profound and wild thing to talk about, but when it comes to how to practice it, people get very nervous—in case they might get sued.

Student:
How does one destroy power?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
By becoming completely one with the power. From the maha ati point of view.

Student:
Rinpoche, it’s not clear to me how these eight logos are related to by the practitioner.

Trungpa Rinpoche:
I think it’s very simple. Those practices are applicable if practitioners have difficulty relating with clarity or death or the proclamation of passion or the experience of penetration or the mother’s curse. The whole thing is very practical. You might find to your surprise that you are challenged by all those elements already, but you are not conscious of those categories described in the texts.

S:
Does the guru give the student practices that assist him in focusing on this or that particular matter? Does it go in a successive progression?

TR:
It could go in progression or it could be training toward the development of your particular style as well.

S:
So it must be very flexible.

TR:
Yes, I think so. That’s why, when you are working with tantric situations, you need a great deal of help from the guru, the benevolent dictator we discussed.

Student:
Is there any parallel between number eight, the spell of wrathful action, and the idea of the warrior? Especially in terms of challenge?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
I think so. If the warrior is training you in dealing with panic. Some people get completely paralyzed by a threat. They can’t walk, they can’t move, they become completely paralyzed. At that point the wise warrior would hit you very violently or decide to shoot you. Then you begin to pull yourself together by yourself and to carry out what you are doing properly. It is always possible that you might be too cowardly. You might see things so clearly that you become a coward. Then you have to be pushed, kicked, by the benevolent dictator.

Student:
Does the history of Tibet show that this complicated theology has been successful in bringing forth numbers of enlightened people?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
Yes. Right up to the present time. I experienced working with an enlightened teacher. There’s no doubt about that. I’m a student of that enlightened person, and I am struggling as well to be a presumptuous person. So there’s no doubt about that.

Student:
Are the eight logos cross-cultural? Is the reason they’re unfamiliar to us that we are unfamiliar with those elements in ourselves or because we happen to be Americans?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
Tantra could be regarded as outlandish in any case. But it does have a transcultural element. It’s like water. Anybody can drink water, including dogs and pigs. The Italians and the Jews and the Americans can also drink water. It’s a transpersonal substance.

Student:
When you were a student in Tibet, were you presented with this whole road map of the nine yanas before you started studying them?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
No, I wasn’t. I was highly confused. I wish they had done this. That’s why I’m doing it. I wanted to look at it myself and share it with the rest of the people. The training program we had in Tibet was unorganized and chaotic. It was extremely rich, but, you know, all over the place.

Student:
What is vajra hell like?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
It’s pretty hellish, so hellish you can’t even think of getting out of it. But when you do think of getting out of it, you are punished even more. If you develop any notion of duality, you are pulled back. If you develop even the notion of “me” existing, you will be pulled back. Constantly sucked into the pain.

Student:
Could becoming Rudra be similar to being in vajra hell?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
Rudra is a candidate for vajra hell rather than a participant in it. Rudra has been enjoying himself too much, and he has to pay back for his enjoyment by going to vajra hell.

Student:
Is the candidate for vajra hell a person who has worked through all the yanas and then suddenly freaks out?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
I think until a person is caught up in the higher maha ati level of practice, he cannot be called a candidate for vajra hell. Up to the mahayana level, a person is immune to such consequences.

Student:
Are these herukas of the eight logos related to as yidams?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
Those are the yidams, yes. You could have one or another of them as a yidam.

Student:
These techniques that you’ve been describing in the tantric yanas sound so similar to brainwashing. Aside from the fact, which you made very clear, that we have to go through hinayana and mahayana to prepare the ground for tantra, is there really any difference between these techniques and other techniques?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
Definitely. These techniques are so daring, so personally challenging. Nothing else is that challenging. Other techniques provide confirmation, they create a nest, rather than exposing you to all kinds of cliffs where you could kill yourself or providing you with all kinds of instruments with which you could commit suicide. These techniques are so pointed, so crude and powerful, uncompassionate and wise, that you cannot really miss the point. Your fear is always there; that’s the target they are getting to.

Student:
You spoke about the student developing a state of mind that was solid, direct, and unwavering. If that is the case, where do the mother’s curse and vajra hell come into the picture?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
That’s the whole point. As you get stronger and your state of mind gets more solid and unwavering, your strength has to be challenged. You can’t just be born a solid person and go on solid without any reference point. So those provide the reference points or challenges. Until you get to maha ati, there are always challenges. There’s always tickling and being pushed and pulled. That always happens.

Student:
To what extent do individuals have a choice not to do any of this? Are these challenges inevitable for everybody?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
Absolutely everybody. People are facing these things all the time in their everyday lives. But what we are doing is providing challenges that have a pattern and a workable orientation toward a path. That way the whole thing becomes more acute and precise.

I think we have to stop at this point. I would like to thank the audience for taking part in this. This seminar on the nine yanas has been one of the landmarks of my work in North America. I hope you will decide to stick with this, look through it some more, and study it. We could regard this particular situation, in May 1973 in San Francisco, as a historical occasion. True vajrayana and the true nine-yana principle have been introduced in America completely and thoroughly. I am glad there was no particular pride on the students’ part, making a big point about having come here because of being confused or fucked up. The students here are serious in spite of some of them being dilettantes maybe. But at least you are serious dilettantes.

It is a very delightful thing that from today onward we will be approaching the point of working with American Buddhism in terms of the tantric teachings. You have taken part in the inauguration of it. Your being there made me say things, and I appreciate that very much. Your response has been fantastic, so kind and energetic at the same time. I am so pleased that you have witnessed this and participated in the bringing of tantra to America, properly, healthily, and officially—according to my boss. Thank you.

Notes

P
ART
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Chapter 1. The Journey

1
.
Spiritual materialism
is a key term in the Vidyadhara’s teaching. The first major book of his North American teachings was called
Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism
(Berkeley, Calif.: Shambhala Publications, 1973; reprinted 1987; see Volume Three of
The Collected Works
). Very simply, spiritual materialism means approaching spirituality with the intention of using it to achieve your preconceived ends rather than with an attitude of surrendering to reality.

Chapter 2. Hopelessness

1
. The symbols for the twelve links (Skt.
nidana
) of the karmic chain of existence are a blind grandmother, the potter’s wheel, a monkey, a person in a boat, a monkey in a six-windowed house, a married couple, an arrow through the eye, drinking milk and honey, gathering fruit, copulation, a woman in childbirth, a funeral procession.

2
. The second and fourth of the great enlightened teachers of the Kagyü lineage of Tibetan Buddhism. Naropa (1016–1100 CE) was one of the best known of the Indian mahasiddhas, or possessors of spiritual powers, as was his teacher Tilopa. Naropa’s student Marpa (1012–1097) was a farmer and the first Tibetan lineage holder of the Kagyü lineage. His student Milarepa (1052–1135 CE) is one of Tibet’s most famous saints, known for spending many years in retreat in remote mountain caves, then having many enlightened students. Milarepa’s main student, Gampopa (1079–1153 CE), founded the monastic order of the Kagyü.